Dr Kent Tonkin, Loss, Grief and Bereavement Policy in the Workplace

Death, Grief and Bereavement are something each of us will experience.  Grief is different and uniqued to each individual.   How we show up as friends, colleagues and managers can play a crucial role in providing comfort during hard times. 

Dr Kent Tonkin, Associate Professor at St Francis University, share his life long journey shaped by loss and grief.  From early childhood loss to his doctorate discretion on Bereavement Policy in the Workplace, Kent's story is inspirational and comforting.   

I have been radically shaped by loss and grief as well.  I have learned that is has a sacred and healing purpose. It has taught me how to heal and growth.  It has also shown me how to support those that are experiencing loss.   Kent and I share many bonds, but this is a deep connection that we speak to in this episode.

Kent's eventual healing came through acts of service.   He was introduced to the "Healing Patch Children's Grief Program".   The Healing Patch offers support to children that have lost a parent or caregiver.   The program needed help when funding was cut and Kent assisted with fund raising.   That lead to a successful non-profit and his active involvement with it. 

Kent's doctorate work in the area of Bereavement Policy in the workplace is both progressive and sorely needed.   The Family Medical Leave Act (FMLA) provides time to care for a dying loved one, but does not provide for any bereavement leave or support.   Workplace policy is either non-existent or is not easily accessible.   In his studies, Managers and direct supervisors can have the greatest impact for employees that have suffered a death of a loved one.

Dr Tonkin is also involved with The Evermore group that advocates for regulatory and legal advancements for loss and bereavement policy. 

Dr Tonkin:   http://www.linkedin.com/in/kent-p-tonkin
The Healing Patch:  https://www.facebook.com/healingpatchchildrensgriefprogram/
Evermore Bereavement Care:  https://live-evermore.org/

Transcript

Josh Meeder: 0:00

Welcome to the great things LLC podcast, the show that celebrates people who are making an impact on the world, people creating conscious businesses that are in alignment with their own personal values. Each episode shares the wisdom experience and the intentions of those that are following their dreams. visionaries who have chosen a different path, found their purpose, and create joy and abundance while helping others. Whether you're already a trailblazer, or still searching for your path, the stories will inspire your worth being the best version of yourself. Welcome, listeners. today's podcast is one that hits very close to the heart. And it has something that all of us experienced throughout our lifetime. And it is talking about grief, bereavement loss and healing from that. Today's guest is a good friend and just a wonderful gentleman in it is Dr. Ken Tonkin. Ken, welcome to the program.

Kent Tonkin: 0:54

Oh, Josh, thanks so much for having me.

Josh Meeder: 0:57

So can't we'll just give you the credentials here a little bit. So you are an assistant professor at the St. Francis university with the School of Business and I see you have dual appointments in both the human resource management and MIS system. You're also a phenomenal musician for one of my favorite bands, Jim Donovan and the Sun King warriors. So you you've done a lot. But here we are today, and you are seated at the at the college office there.

Kent Tonkin: 1:24

Yeah, I'm here in my office. Today I'll be meeting with students when we're done with our interview today, let's just

Josh Meeder: 1:28

start this discussion by identifying what is grief, because it's different for so many and how it touches people.

Kent Tonkin: 1:36

But grief often gets lumped in with the world of mental illness. And the important thing to realize is grief is not a mental illness, Grief is a natural response to loss. Now, as you aptly state, everybody experiences grief in a different way. Sometimes grief can go for longer periods for different people, it never gets the title of mental illness until it starts to become an impediment to your normal functioning over a long period of time. It's natural, it's part of life, because everybody and everything dies. And so how we respond to it is really up to us individually. And again, it's something that we don't really integrate well into our daily lives in Western culture.

Josh Meeder: 2:18

In grief, while we're talking about specifically here today, the bereavement process and the policies around that grief can also come in a lot of different forms. It is from the loss of a loved one, it can be from the loss of a relationship, it could be from a change of career abandonment, health diagnosis, it could be literally moving on to a better place in life because you're grieving what's known. So while it comes in different forms, sometimes that process may feel similar. Would you feel the same on that? I'd give

Kent Tonkin: 2:47

you the agree. And I think right now in 2022, the reason we're also cognizant of grief, people quite literally have lost loved ones during the course of the pandemic. But at the same time, we're also grieving the lives we had before. When we could just go out and do anything we want it without really thinking about it, going to a concert, go into a shopping mall, eating dinner, those things are things we don't take for granted now because we lost them or had the modified physician on time.

Josh Meeder: 3:14

Yeah, thank you. I feel that and I think that's a piece that's missed. But let's talk about, we'll share both of our stories because you and I've parallel on some things on on some loss. So let's let's start at the beginning can't use you suffered a lot of loss. Very early on, if you would share your story, to give the listeners some context here. Sure.

Kent Tonkin: 3:40

I am very open with my background. I have a twin brother, we were estranged from our father, our mother and father were not married. And my father passed when I was about six, I have no no memory of him. And his place was filled by an uncle who became like a surrogate father to me. My uncle passed when when I was in seventh grade, followed tears later by my mother. And so then my grandmother who had been our caregiver, and the person who had filled in for my mom passed when I was a year out of college and went by the time I went between the ages of six and 22, other than my brother, everybody who was in the house I had grown up with had passed away. And so we really experienced a lot of loss very quickly. Some of the complications from that. I mean, obviously, loss is tough. But when you're going through the 1980s, before we had greater awareness of integrating these kinds of experiences, I remember during none of these losses did anybody in my school administration ever talked to me? Counselor never talked to us. We were never put into any kind of program. The best I recall is our family doctor when my mom passed offering my brother and I tranquilizers, not, not things that were proactive but basically you can dull the pain and what we experienced I think it's kids When my brother got into a lot of destructive behavior that led me on the path to become somebody who worked constantly somebody who became addicted to doing more things all the time to shut down my own feelings really derailed my personal life in my relationships. Because I did not have a successful shot at integrating grief until much later on in my life. What I credit to saving my existence, was getting involved in volunteerism, particularly with a group called the healing patch where I started working with with grieving teenagers, that was the age group I was paired with, and having a chance to intervene. And to work with these kids, when they were in the same shoes I was in fixed a part of my heart that I cannot even put into words, sometimes it's it was really what saved my life and put me on the course to being a positive person today who can talk about these things. That's that's a really kind of condensed version of what happened. But yeah, I walked in some awesome weird shoes for a substantial part of my life.

Josh Meeder: 5:59

I understand that. And I'll share a little my story, one of the things that I felt I felt the connection and a similarity is one being of the same age in the same generation, there wasn't the awareness. And even still, today, people are uncomfortable on talking about grief. My first experience with grief or loss was my great grandfather who I was born on his birthday. On Father's Day, I share his name. And so we had this beautiful connection, first great grandson, and he passed when I was, I think I was nine or 10. So that was the first experience. And then my father passed in when I was in college, and in my senior year, and the school did what they could, but there wasn't anything for the bereavement part of it, I had a unique situation where I actually had to start working and take over my father's insurance agency and complete schools, they moved my schedule around, which was tremendously helpful. So I could work three days a week and finish school three, finish working three days a week to get the agency running, which was helpful, but there was no emotional support there. And then, six years ago, I had I was in relationship and my partner passed unexpectedly. And to that point, I kinda like you as like, well, I buried myself in work, I was, you know, go go go, especially at 21 I didn't have the emotional skill sets, nor did I have the outside support. Unfortunately, on this last loss with my partner, I had some really good folks around me and some really good healing modalities that helped turn and put my life into a whole different directory, which I'm here now. But those resources really aren't available for many out there. And there's such a such a distaste or like, uncomfortableness, being able to talk about death or loss in in society or in workplaces. So with that, you found your your healing, your healing started by helping others in that position. So you shared your story with me. But the story of the healing patch is a beautiful, beautiful story. So I'd like to go into that. How did you first get introduced to that healing patch who put you in that place?

Kent Tonkin: 8:10

I like to say sometimes the universe has to hit you in the head pretty hard before you listen. And I had seen a flyer here at St. Francis for a group called the healing patch and had kind of blown it off it was I'd heard about this grief mentoring service and thought, well, that's not something I want to get involved in. And it took two or three different people mentioning it directly to me who knew my story, before I finally called the coordinator and said, I'd really like to come down and see this place. I met the coordinator. Her name was Alison Stockley. And at that time, within three minutes of meeting her, I knew that I needed to be a part of it. Their model is not therapy, their model is having kids split up into into groups based on age and maturity. And these kids build their own peer bonds and peer networks. And the idea being kind of the model is, look, I know you're in a place similar to me, I got you. If you need to talk I can be there for you. We as the adults in the room are facilitators, we're not counselors, we create the form for the kids to build the connections themselves. And one of the most beautiful parts about this model, there's a separate room for the adults, if there are surviving adults, they are able to talk to other adults who are trying to raise kids as now similar caregivers in many cases, and trying to heal themselves. I've got to share this story. This is what healing looks like. And this is what it means to heal in your community. There was a gentleman who had lost his wife and had a young daughter and his daughter was crying before school every day because mom was no longer there to braid her hair. And the ladies in the adult room taught this man how to braid his daughter's hair. And I don't know if there's a better allegory for peer mentoring and healing than that story.

Josh Meeder: 9:51

Beautiful like what an awareness in a simple act like you can't fix grief. You can only support the person through the process and That's what that that daughter needed. What a beautiful story. Now, you, you so you got in and you started to mentor some of these kids, there was a place where that got deeper where you became more active within the organization itself. And some fundraising

Kent Tonkin: 10:15

we want to happen was because this is a nonprofit organization that was part at that time have a home health care group. And they were facing budget cuts. And a group of us knew about this. And what they were looking at cutting off at the beginning of every session was a communal meal. And that's so important, because it's breaking bread together and saying, we can have this time to get in and know each other a little before we get into the heavy lifting, when they're gonna have to cut the meals. And a bunch of us got together and said, This is unacceptable. We, if they're facing budget cuts, we can raise some money, we put together a concert, got a few bands together felt we'd make 1200 bucks to buy a few pizzas for the year. And our first year, we raised $5,000. The second year we did it, we thought we'll make $5,000 this year and before expenses, we made $12,000. And by the third year, we had to form a nonprofit because we were moving too much money around to simply be carrying bags of money to give people to buy pizza. And that led to patch together Incorporated. And since 2011, since our first year when we were not officially in existence, we've now raised over$130,000, since 2011, to be able to ensure that those resources are available to kids who need them. So that was how, that's how I got into the world of nonprofit but by necessity, we're moving too much money.

Josh Meeder: 11:32

Oh, you know, not a problem that most early stage nonprofits have. So that's a good thing. How many in that timeframe? would you estimate? How many kids? Have you impacted or had touchpoints? With?

Kent Tonkin: 11:45

That's a really good question. I would say, literally, we're probably in the 1000s at this point. And keep in mind, this is a small community, we're in small rural parts of Pennsylvania. And there are two locations, one in Cambria, one in Blair County that have large outreach. What had happened, though, Josh, over the last several years, prior to COVID, the service has started getting maxed out, because of the high amount of opioid deaths in Central PA. And after COVID hit all of a sudden, a lot of these kids COVID overtook opioids as the number one source of parental death. And the services at this point, they're at times there are a waiting list because there's such a demand for the services. And it's really, the folks coordinate this program are doing a lot with

Josh Meeder: 12:31

a little. That's amazing. So we will drop the link and information in the description here. So if this story moves, you, please feel free to encourage you to go support the healing patch in the great work they're doing. So we'll drop that there. So at this point, Ken, what what age were you when you got involved in this? And because in how did you move into the education system and moving on towards ultimately the bereavement doctorial work you've done?

Kent Tonkin: 13:00

Well, I was in my middle 30s When I discovered the healing patch, and again, had had a series of failed relationships in my wake, because of my inability to integrate grief got into the healing patch and my middle 30s. And by 2011 actually break before it turned 40 is when we started doing the fundraising piece. And it kind of parallel because I had a career change. When I was 30. Actually no I was I was 4040 years old. When I started teaching 41 Actually, when I switched from from working in a corporate job to teaching full time. And so it kind of paralleled in terms of the transition into the nonprofit world that transition into teaching. And that led to doctoral work. And the work I've been doing as a volunteer kind of all of a sudden became my doctoral thesis to the person who who spurred me on her name is Melody Ray. She's the current coordinator of the healing patch. And during one of our conversations said to me, Well, if you're doing research involving organizations, have you ever looked at bereavement policy? And again, sometimes the universe has to hit you in the head? And I said, Wow, no, I hadn't thought of that. But I probably should. And so the person who coordinates that organization that had been supporting for over 10 years was the person who also suggested my dissertation topic.

Josh Meeder: 14:17

Okay, and that dissertation topic? Well,

Kent Tonkin: 14:20

the dissertation topic was an exploration of the impact of workplace policy on bereavement. And so I started doing some some kind of minor research to say, how big is this problem? And what I found is there's not a lot of formal research out there, but there's a lot of popular articles you look at, you know, any business magazine you can look at, whether it's the Society for Human Resource Management, or Forbes or any of those popular business magazines. Wow, this is a real problem. The first thing that really hit me in the United States with the Family Medical Leave Act, which guarantees every full time person up to 12 weeks of unpaid leave to take care of themselves or somebody else who's suffering from a medical condition. If that person Since a loved one dies, FMLA doesn't apply anymore. In the United States, we have no required time off for bereavement. Most people in the United States will get between two and five days off with the biggest loss of their lives. And Josh, you've been through it, you know how these ripples go out and other parts of your lives. Somebody loses a parent has to deal with an estate. And in addition to the mental stress and the grief and the sorrow, minimum, it's going to take one to two years to resolve those estate issues. If you're not getting paid time off, you can't make it to government offices to be able to get things like that. So that's certificates. One of the big research studies, actually by somebody in Blackburn and Oba Blackburn and basalt, Bulsara indicated that people were being re traumatized, because they were going to government offices to get death certificates because their companies wanted verification that their parent had died. And so can you imagine that you you're having to prove to your employer that you're not lying about losing somebody who is that important to you. And so that led to me doing a qualitative study, I interviewed 23 people to find out what their experiences had been like bereavement in the workplace, how their their workplaces had supported them, how the culture of the employer had supported them, how the rules of the game either applied or didn't, and how that affected their opinions of their employers. And, and here's kind of the big results. Your supervisor, your manager is the absolute key to all of this stuff. Many folks reported that their managers completely disregarded policy to give people more time off and flexible time. And that's kind of a good thing too, because most people didn't even know what their own bereavement policies were in their companies. Supervisors can be flexible, granting leave discretionary leave, making sure that people had what they needed, and that that leave remained available over the coming year. So the supervisor is really the key person. And for reasons you might not expect, the best thing that I can also encourage employers to think about is how they are handling employees information when they're suffering bereavement. One of the biggest things we noted in this study was that individuals, essentially were experienced bereavement had sort of a polar reaction to sharing in the workplace. And here's what I mean by that. There were two folks who participated in the study who both were at the back end of an all staff email informing everybody about what it happens, though, one person thought it was the greatest thing ever, because it was a gateway to more support from co workers who would stop and check on them, the other person felt their privacy had been completely violated, because they did not want to grieve at work, they did not want to bring that to work. They wanted to treat their their workplace in office as a place of respite, not a place where they would grieve, and the employers actions and sharing and several other things ultimately led to that individual leaving their employment because of the way they've been treated. So it's really in the supervisors power to say to someone when they're going through this terrible event, let us know how you want this handle so that we can honor your wishes. And so those are some of the big findings. There's lots of findings in the study. But the biggest one, ultimately is your supervisor will more often than not determine the experience you have with bereavement work.

Josh Meeder: 18:29

So from a company perspective, that is probably one of the key touch points for employee retention, satisfaction, job satisfaction, and long term loyalty. There's all the ancillary benefits, but there's that human aspect. And the piece that you brought up on that two polar reactions is something that is, if you've been through grief, you can understand it, but sometimes you don't know what you need, but you know what you don't like and to have someone there. Because grief is such a wide emotional process. Sometimes people in grief can't feel it, and to have someone there that has a little bit of training or the ability to ask questions, and to listen and to be present without trying to fix it, I think is one of the big pieces that is missing just in in personal interactions. But certainly in in the business. So it is the supervisors you know, direct impact from from the supervisor perspective. We talked about this a little bit. How do you train a supervisor because there's this is an uncomfortable place for a lot of people to speak. So in getting a better bereavement process within a company? What are some of the things that employers can do to support their staff and their supervisors in delivering it?

Kent Tonkin: 19:50

I think the companies should start looking at this as something that should be reinforced, maybe even on an annual basis. Every year good companies do things like sexual harassment training, they do training for compliance for a variety of things, depending on the industry. And yet, we don't talk about grief. And that's something that's going to appear literally in every single workplace, regardless of industry. So giving managers even a script to follow. And I know that sounds may be a little cold. But an idea of being when something happens when you find out that an employee is dealing with a bereavement or a loss, these are the questions you should ask. And this is the way you shouldn't or interact with that person. Not everybody can be made to be comfortable with his conversations. But the person who is suffering loss, I think, based on my research, will remember that at least somebody in the organization took the time to ask them what their wishes were to go through the process to let them know what was available to them, and to step in and help them through the process, or, conversely, to put their hands off, if that's what the employee wants. I mean, I think the one thing that employers probably also need to look at is to have managers who are aware of when we're looking at a safety issue, for example, if you were in a factory environment, where a high stress environment or medical environment is somebody who is dealing with a loss, mentally capable of being in that work environment without putting themselves or others at risk. And so that would vary by work environment. The other thing I would mention, there's, there's a new and emerging industry that's coming out now called grief coaching. And that's essentially teaching people how to be better at helping others grieve. There's a subset of that, that this I think, fantastic. That's corporate grief coaching. So we actually have people who are going out into the workplace is consulting with employers and saying, This is what should be in your policy. This is what should be in your training. This is how you can make sure these issues don't occur. And I think the reason employers are open to listening to this right now, the latest Bureau of Labor Statistics stats, right now, our labor force participation rate, in terms of 100% of Americans who could work were about 63%. And the unemployment rate of that 63% is about 4%. So we're talking about 4% of 63% of the population that can't find a job, what that means. It's an employee's market, it's tough to get good people. And if you're looking at an unemployment and retention standpoint, you as an employer, this is another tool in your toolbox to ensure those good people who are coming to work for you will stay, because they'll remember the kindness you showed, I

Josh Meeder: 22:26

don't want to boil it down to the simple things, but it is about doing the right thing. And in the right thing pays dividends for the employer. And for the employee that long term, that customer or the employee appreciation, I've seen people in different circumstances where when they've had an incredible employer that steps up for him in a moment of crisis or need, that person will stay there, even through better job offers, because the loyalty and the the attachment they have to those folks with the those corporate Grief counselors, or do they just help set policy or are they're also available for a company to bring in, in in times of employee loss or grief.

Kent Tonkin: 23:13

It's kind of one of those industries, that's that sort of going through the storming, forming norming phase, and the fact that there are pockets of this profession all over the country right now. And they run the gamut. For example, one of my colleagues really, truly does the corporate thing, where she goes in and consults with companies and is helping them set policy and doing direct training with managers. So that's a very limited subset. To be honest with you. It's a it's a field I'd like to get into, because it's new and emerging. But then we go to the other extreme, there are individuals who will train people how to do one on one grief coaching, even at an individual that has nothing to do with work. So it really is a new and emerging discipline. It's something that companies are only now starting to see the value of. So it's a it's a great field to get into right now.

Josh Meeder: 24:01

If a CEO or some sort of leadership is listening right now, from an employer standpoint, what is the one? What are the one or two things that they could do to help start developing the bereavement policy within their organization? How would what would you suggest employers do if they have a gap in this area currently?

Kent Tonkin: 24:21

Well, I would say that, and this is this is really boiling it down. I would say two things. Number one, look for some of the resources that are already out there. I work with a group called evermore was a nonprofit who is doing government level advocacy for for bereavement policy, but every Moore's website, they have a number of policy recommendations and documents you can get for free. That will give you a starting point. The second part of it, I would say is talk with your employees. And whether it's putting together a committee whether it's talking to your managers, get people together who aren't going through this yet to talk about what should be your policy, what should be your approach, what is the best way to ensure that Are all your employees know what your policies are? In reality? The research backs up that most people don't honestly abuse bereavement policy. And I think so many employers are just concerned if they are generous with those policies that people will try to get time off repeatedly. And there will be those folks, that is not the majority of people who are dealing with this loss. This these are my my two biggest recommendations,

Josh Meeder: 25:24

touching a little bit on evermore. That's a good segue. There's also some work that you're following or participating in on not just the policy side, but the legislative slide side like so what what needs to happen from our legislative and regulatory environment to support bereavement in the workplace?

Kent Tonkin: 25:44

I think that the focus on what my research indicated is the focus on the lower rungs of the employment ladder, people maybe who are new employees or not as well established in organizations, and they'll be blunt people who are more entry level employees are the ones who suffer the most. And I think that what might really help. From a policy standpoint, the ideal would be nationally required paid bereavement leave, in the absence of that happening, because it's a tough pill to swallow to ask government to require more days off for a lot of people, even more flexibility with the Family Medical Leave Act. So that established policy that we're all very familiar with, and the companies know how to mandate. I think those sorts of things can be adapted the Family Medical Leave Act could be adapted to a lot of time off for bereavement, too. So I think maybe we need to look at compromise between those two extremes. I think paid bereavement leave at the federal level will be fantastic. But I think as a great second option, some modification of FMLA would make a lot of sense.

Josh Meeder: 26:45

Even at the paid federal level. I believe you spoke there's really only one country that actually has federalized bereavement policy which is was was shocking to me to hear if you

Kent Tonkin: 26:56

ever get a chance to meet this lady, her name is Lucy herd, and she is a warrior she she got paid bereavement leave, passed through Parliament in the UK, the UK is currently the only country in the world that has required bereavement leave for parents who either lose a pregnancy or a child. And it was named Jack's law after her son Jack who tragically died in an accident. And so she is a warrior and she's an example for the rest of the world, what can happen.

Josh Meeder: 27:22

That's, that's amazing. Sometimes it just takes one passionate person to ignite that, that movement, he is fierce. With all this information. In the positive side, we haven't really touched on how the lack of or poor or even policy can have just disastrous impacts for the person and for the employer. Any examples of what not to do?

Kent Tonkin: 27:50

Well, the old vernacular is that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And I think the best example, I can think of that in my research, there was an individual who had lost her father, and had returned to work. After returning to work, she was asked by her supervisor to come to a meeting where the entire staff had gathered, and in front of the entire staff presented her with a father daughter figurine to commemorate her father's loss. And that was ultimately what drove her to leave the company she worked for because she had specifically asked that her last not be fussed over in the workplace that she had been not put in a situation to be on display. And they did the exact opposite of what she asked for. I can't even imagine what that must have felt like, especially being in that raw, emotional place. That to me is the best example I can think of how to completely disregard your employees feelings.

Josh Meeder: 28:45

Also feels like there's probably some liability opened up from an employer employment standpoint, you know, sharing private information when you were told, requested not to.

Kent Tonkin: 28:58

I think the reason we don't see more of that is probably because people are in such a raw emotional place, they're more likely just to leave. And to say, rather than open that wound a little more deeply, what we're going to do is just walk away. In fact, the other story I would say this is this is a controversial topic, but the story needs to be told because we need more research on this aspect. One individual who participated in my study had suffered several miscarriages at work, not not during work, but while while she was working, her employer refused to acknowledge her miscarriage as a loss. And again, that gets into the controversy surrounding reproductive rights in this country right now. But she was denied leave and her supervisor even instructed her that type of abortive procedure that she thought she should have. And so was was telling her how to terminate a pregnancy and how to handle her loss. Now her particular spiritual and religious beliefs meant that she needed to carry the pregnancy to terms and to deliver. When she returned from what leaves, she was able to cobble together from paid time off and sick leave. She was put on a performance improvement plan because her supervisor had known that while she was dealing with a miscarriage, her performance levels have dropped off. And so the takeaway message there is, regardless of the controversy we're on right now, with things like reproductive rights, the employers response of giving that individual latitude to make their own decisions, ultimately would have kept that person at the company, she ended up leaving, because of the way she had been treated. And it was a company for which she had been recruited heavily. And so So the message there is give people latitude in deciding what's important to them. It's

Josh Meeder: 30:47

just almost hard to hear that story. It just the lack of humanity, the lack of compassion. That that's a tough one. Yeah. And there's also the place you touched on to earlier that employers have a responsibility to the safety and the productivity of the rest of the company in their clients. So it's when we spoke off offline, I really appreciated your approach to the balance side of the employer as well. So it's, it's not like they get everything they need. But there is a way in a discussion. So how, how do you see the employers and the supervisors in those situations where someone is experiencing deep grief and loss and their performance may may suffer for a little while it's normal, I that was my experience, you just can't get your head in the game, nor should you because you should be healing. So how, how from an employment standpoint, do you balance that line with employee care and business requirements?

Kent Tonkin: 31:49

Well, obviously, they can't be carte blanche, because sooner or later people have to get back to work, we have to do what we have to do. I think that employers however, need to be a little bit more hands on and individualized with their approaches to this stuff. There might be the one extreme person who whose grief is so debilitating that maybe they'll never come back and be who they were before. And that happens, you know, unfortunately, that person may need to start over somewhere else. And I know that's, that's an unfortunate reality to talk about. But most people probably will fall out in some place less than that. And the same level of patience that employers have had to apply over the last two years during COVID, where we had to scramble, sometimes to find people to staff organizations and to be present on site. I think that what we're dealing with here is probably not as bad as that. So the lessons we've learned in terms of a little more flexibility in humanity, even in large, very rigid work environments, we need to apply here. And sometimes that also means large organizations may have to adjust their ideas of performance to simply because we've already seen that in the last two and a half years of our lives. So that's not a great answer. Because it's not something it's a hard and fast answer. But I think also, if you get into grief coaching within organizations, that greater awareness will really assist companies in being more flexible, just the very fact that managers might actually be a little more involved in this process means we can have a more individualized response to get people back work when they're ready, and when it's safe for them to be there.

Josh Meeder: 33:23

And just to follow up on that on the grief process, it's not a linear process either. So to get the employers and employees themselves to recognize that there's an intensity in the initial stages, then there's kind of a lull and then you get those days, you know, or those special anniversaries that will creep up and, you know, just catch you out of nowhere, or it could be a sight or a sound or a smell, we could be having a great day. So the process of grief is an ongoing process.

Kent Tonkin: 33:52

And the funny thing about it is one of the worst things to happen in a world of briefer open office spaces. And in fact that Bauer and Murray did this great study. And one of the biggest problems we have is that people in many modern office layouts don't even have a private place to go when they're having one of those days. So I'm lucky I've got an office, if somebody's in an open office layout. Much grieving is done in modern America and bathrooms because there's no place else to go to be able to lose it. Not in front of somebody. Right.

Josh Meeder: 34:29

Well, Ken, thank you for one taking the time and for the work that you're doing. Congratulations on defending and getting that doctor out there. You know, get those in those coveted initials. And just closing anything else you'd like to share with the audience or tips for employers or employees. anyone experiencing grief? How would you like to finish up here?

Kent Tonkin: 34:50

I think I want to leave the audience with one final point. Nobody's good at grief. Nobody is an expert at grief. If you find yourself wondering what to say to somebody who Is last somebody The best advice that can give you go to them and tell them that you're there. They might not call on you, they may not call you, they might not stop and see you. But simply telling somebody, Hey, I'm here, I acknowledged your loss. And if you need me, however you need me, I'll be there for you. That's the best thing in the world you can do for somebody, the two worst things you can do are to tell somebody you know how they feel, because grief is so individually individually focused. And the second is to just avoid someone. And unfortunately, because we're uncomfortable with grief, sometimes when people need us the most, that's when we tend to walk away from them. And it doesn't mean we're bad people it means it's something we don't know how to do. Right.

Josh Meeder: 35:41

Beautiful sentiments, and I'm going to add one small piece to that is, in my view, and my experience with grief is to give someone who's grieving a lot of grace, they may not be acting how they normally do, you can't be in their shoes. So give them some grace show up, as you said, and just be there. That's, that's beautiful. We need we need more of that in the world here. I agree in dress. Thanks so much for sharing your story too, by the way. Yeah, it's, you know, it doesn't define you, but it certainly steals the makeup a little bit. And you know, looking back, you can survive it, you can be stronger, and you can turn grief, from an overwhelming debilitating loss and sad depth to something that is beautiful. And it's not negating the loss, it's actually honoring it. So I appreciate the story. Ken, thank you again, and I look forward to seeing ya if you are out in the western Pennsylvania area or if they're touring, I do suggest definitely catch Jim Donovan in the Sun King warrior so you can see Ken in his other natural environment. And please do check out some of the links here for the organizations that Ken's mentioned support where you can and openness discussion with your employees and employees employers. Thanks, everyone. Thank you. I hope you've enjoyed this episode of the great things LLC podcast. If you did, be sure to share the link with this episode with your friends, and share it to your social media with your biggest takeaway tagging me a great things LLC. Make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. There's so much more to come. You can support me by leaving a rating and a review of the show and that will help others to find their purpose, dream, collaborate and create their own success story. Until next time, this is Josh Meeder your host signing off